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I heard the Addington team wanted to step up to reserves this year but have been prevented.

I think all clubs should be able to play their way to prem level through relegation system

What if we had a whole new format.

Canterbury cup- new prem format, who's Pat Smith?

Premier league - new open grade old reserve

20's Stallions- like NRL step up from the union colts

Prem league and 20's would both be pathways to Cant cup,
Prem league and 20's would be top level competitions in there own right, with prize money etc

Premier league and 20's should have as many teams as they can field.
Get rid of the old reserve grade playing before prems this is what stops the addition of new teams.

I would like to present this to clubs and take it to CRL we really lack leadership at CRL they are not creating pathways for players or clubs. If what I have heard is right get ready for a major stuff up this season.

Addington could not step up to prems in present system they would need prem and reserve grade team to do it but my system would allow them to go to premier league this year and build club and play their way into Canterbury cup

Sydenham could come back, Shirley would get a shot,

What do you think ?

Every year CRL change the format of league but we never get ahead, we need a commitment to a 5 year strategic plan
to refresh the competition

Great idea! You should definately propose it to Canterbury Rugby League. I read and see alot of great ideas on this site but sadly nothing ever comes of it. Canterbury Rugby League needs CHANGE!

While I agree that there has to be a clear pathway for clubs to aspire to premier league, we need to do it without punishing those clubs that have built up their strength by having healthy player no.s, and offering a variety of grades to play.
There seems to be a struggle for most clubs to field u18 or u20 teams now - and to have such a competition would pull younger players away from clubs such as Shirley, Woolston etc. I don't know what the answer is.
I'd like to see a midweek knockout competition (first two rounds on a saturday) that would give every club a look in, and a prestigious double for strong clubs to aspire to.
Celebration are a relatively new club what pathway did they follow to get to premiers?

We were very lucky because the constitution did not have any specific direction to a brand new club wanting to be a premier club.
The constitution only talked about relegation matches for clubs without prem status.
So we had to prove we could field sufficient teams to sustain a prem team, and we had to show we had strong membership base, and the financial ability to fund new club.

CRL football committee and some local clubs opposed and we were rejected so we appealed to NZRL and with the support of the CRL CEO at that time, were able to convince NZRL so they ordered an appeal meeting and we were accepted.

The Eastern club at the time really supported our application because we had provided them with a reserve grade team for several years. When we provided East with reserve team we told them up front we wanted to have our own club.
East really helped us and we continue to be grateful for that

Opposition was based on rugby league is dying already so we don't want anymore clubs in Canty.

After starting with 3 teams prem, reserve, 2nd Div it took 3 years to begin juniors, now we have teams in nearly every grade

Maybe younger players in Shirley/ woolston might stay if they could build teams that had a chance to reach prem's

At the moment they wont let them get past First Div so no incentive.

I think knock out comp very good idea so everyone gets a chance.

I believe some of the 1st Div teams would roll some of the weaker reserve grade teams if they had a chance to play them.

We tried to help Sydenham retain prem status but there were some at CRL who just wanted them gone.
I really feel for Sydenham they have a fantastic history and have bought some great players into league including Bamby
"according to news paper article on him recently"

I think as clubs in the city we should do all we can to help Addington succeed, another club with a great history.

Shirley always have some of the toughest teams in the lower grades but never get the chance at prems

I think there is a clear enough path for clubs wanting to move to premiers. It was stated about 2 years ago that every premier side was required to have a b's and a certain amount of junior teams. To me, there is no logic in having a good div 1 team ply there trade in premiers without having their foundations in place. It is just a recipe for disaster. However, if a good div 1 club has a continual strong junior base and a strong senior team then maybe it would be viable to look at them being moved to premiers.

The last thing Rugby League in Canterbury (clubs or CRFL) should want is an easy route to get to premiers and then have the club fall to pieces after one year or even halfway through the season.

Thanks

yeah good point judah... a few years ago Sydenham (no disrespect) were allowed to field a prem team without a reserve grade side (I think they tagged along with Woolston?)

There were games they defaulted due to not being able to field a full prem team etc... which isnt good for obviously the team they were to play... but also the players of Sydenham as they had no-one to call on etc...

There needs to be the foundation there for sure...

BUT I do like the idea of having a knock out comp to establish maybe div1 & div 2 maybe... and possibly the Prem clubs reserve grade sides??

will keep things interesting... and could get the likes of Woolston, Shirley, Marist, Addington etc playing curtain raisers to Prem games... increasing their exposure etc...

I do like the forward thinking on your behalf MW but do also think that if you look at it, very few clubs could field the likes of a "Stallions" grade. Union have been able too supply such a grade because they have the numbers! And if only a hand full of clubs could field Stallions grade then those clubs that couldn't would be disadvantaged because of the lack of players in their systems able to step up too Premiers when ready, who would probably then play for a club that had a Stallions grade team.

I would like too see the likes of Sydenham, Addington, Woolston get their chance to once again vy for Premiership but know that given the opportunity right now I don't believe they would be able to field competitive enough teams, again a number and player quality thing. This is my limited perspective so feel free to disagree. I'm thinking 5 yrs maybe 10yr we could see that or maybe think about it but I believe there needs to be alot of ground work done before we could even consider this. Part of the ground work could see clubs being a little more curtious to one another and leave up and coming players (including junior) of talent within the clubs they currently play for! I know it's a cruel cruel world but sometimes you have to look past whats good for your own club and make choices for the betterment of the whole.

I think it could be done in 2 years maybe 3 with right direction an focus.

this yrs 18s would become next years 20's

you would have at least 2 seasons with those teams and time to continue recruiting to build depth in 16s and 18s so the progression of players works at club level.


i would personally amalgamate reserves, div1 into one grade (call it canterbury cup! sorry not too original)

an have the 20's as feeder to prems with over 20's an late bloomers in the other amalgamated canterbury cup competition(reserve and div1) so effectively a premier club has 2 feeder teams for it premiers...

The reserve grade has lost its way a little...

Div1 and Div2 are dead end (its good if the goal is purely social but i think some clubs have greater aspirations)

over half of the canterbury clubs are stuck with no easy pathway forward an i believe very very few would be able to make the jump to premiers. (how many new premier clubs have we had in the last 10yrs?)

I think we could assume maybe the same for the next 10yrs unless theres some different options tabled.

interested in your thoughts though !!!

Someone out there has prob got some great ideas to help us all move forward..

wow this is all really positive talk! awesome.

in all honesty the team we will be fielding this year would be ready for at the very LEAST premier b's...and in saying that next year given that players who have been released from sydenham over the years would see the opportunity to return and play premiers for sydenham and do so...

i think the format in which clubs are allowed to enter a team back into premier grade is a little bit oldschool, and clubs should be given the opportunity to build they're entire club through their senior sides.

we have nearly 30 players this year for one squad. but regardless of weather we win a grand final this year in div.1 we still won't be allowed to enter a premier side unless we have a certain amount of depth in the junior club.

i think the time for change is now, and we want our status back!!

couldnt agree more..

I personally do not believe the key is having lots of juniors before getting to prems.

I would also say that there must be a workable strategic 5 yr plan based on the club goals and strengths to develop a good junior club.

You can get junior sides and no strategic plan and it make no difference to weather you have a prem team or not.
they are quite different things..

before all you old school leaguies give me heaps.. im not saying dont do it.... im saying do it but with an end or goal in mind.

I have been involved in starting or restarting 3 clubs in the region and it took 3 different approaches to get them up an going again.

Celebration
Parklands
Timaru

my plan for a non premier club who want to get there status back would be to

yr 1 get a good snr team 30-40 players (div1)

yr 2 get a second snr team with average age early 20's
begin to recruit 16-17yrs for a 18's squad

yr 3 make sure you got a 18s and solid numbers for 2 senior teams

if ya have younger juniors even better preferably 16yrs and work down

NZRL will not stop you having a go !!! with that base.....

and hopefully crfl would support as well.... im sure they would...

Firstly, 20's grade is the way to go as a feeder to the premiers.

Yes many 18 -20yr olds maybe good enough to make the step up.!

but what happens to the rest?, they have to play in the reserve grade.

Most kids want to play with there friends, if they are not interested in playing Prems or B's or Div 1.

There needs to be a better pathway from 16 - 18yr olds. If you want to keep them in rugby league. and they are the future of the game.

Secondly, promotion relegation is the best way to keep clubs from being on the bottom of there prem grade.!it offers a possible chance for any struggling or club with aspirations to one day make it again.

But you do have to have the support underneath the prems to make it viable otherwise, you will die a slow death as people have said in this forum re other clubs.

Going up a grade just to have a turn or a shot at it isnt the right way for a club.If you have 2 consecutive wins in a row maybe? But This is where CRFL needs to step in and decide.

There has been some positive talk on here and alot of good suggestions but...

The guy that opened his post on here with "Who's Pat Smith?"really needs to do some research. Some die-hard Leaguies around Canterbury would be very offended at that ignorant comment.

It is all good to say that we need to look at the grades on offer to our young people in League but we need to be realistic. Players that are good enough at 17 should be playing Premiers. We should be promoting the step up as early as possible if these kids are serious about their career in our sport. Over the ditch the target group for NRL Clubs is alot younger these days.

The issue here is player safety. In Oz these younger "kids" are able to make the step up because the referees are capable of controlling the game and the basics are explicitly taught at trainings by coaches. We need to be up-skilling coaches and in turn there needs to be a drive through all grades (even premiers) to improve the coaching of the basic techniques etc. Harsher penalties also for the players out there who are playing dangerously and recklessly. We would see a massive improvement in all levels of competition and we would be giving our young players the best possible shot at succeeding overseas.

I see Rugby League's growing presence in schools here in Canterbury as vital for the progress of our game here. We need to keep reaching out to our local schools as there are kids everywhere that love our game. All they need is a slight nudge in the right direction.

The current grades we have are good enough (16's & 18's) with some tweaking of the senior divisions needed. I agree that we need to have promotion/relegation. When kids leave school they should be prepared to make the step up to that senior tier of football.

thats my 2 cents

I'm the guy, didn't mean to offend, other than the name on trophy there is very little talk or info on Pat Smith.
I bet the young guys in clubs don't have a clue who he is either.

New rules prevent 17 year old playing prem football must be 18.

Totally agree with safety, coaches, ref's, dealing with reckless dangerous players.

We had 6 17 year old teams last year, we should have 6 18's this year, just encourage the players to stick together and we could have 6 under 20's sure some players will go direct into prem and reserve but that may not be best pathway.

Melbourne Storm guys said 20's is now most popular grade in Aussie

My view is "If we aim at nothing we will be sure to hit it"

If we wait 10 years? I'm just to old to wait that long!

Rugby league is not going to advance by doing nothing, we have to take some risks, give it go

Sydenham prems had to default because Woolston would not back them up with players when they needed them.

If you have no chance of ever being a prem club you will have no chance of attracting players to build depth

Correct me if I am wrong but the NZRL have flagged the 16s & 18s this year... changed them to 15s & 17s?? something to do with building towards next years 16s & 18s??? so alot of youngsters at our club are pissed off because they wont get an opportunity to represent etc...

17s can play prems... with parents permission... I thought??? could be wrong?? please confirm??

With Rugby on the downturn... we need to strike soon I think before the Rugby World Cup kicks into gear in 2011...... otherwise every man and his dog will want to give union a go.... and all little boys (& girls) will want to be the next Zac Guildford instead of the next Kevin Locke etc....

17years can play premiers, they just need their parents to write to NZRL stating that they give their permission for their
son to play. My son has played league since he was 4 years old and has just turned 17, he is bored playing against the same boys and teams that he always plays against and he wants to have a go at premiers, he has represented canty at all age groups and last year made the 16s bulls team,if he cant trial/play for the premier team and is forced to stay in the 17s/18s then we will loose him to rugby or some other sport because he is looking for a new challange, he knows that he wont have to play/try that hard in 17s/18s because the comp is not the greatest, so for someone of his skill level
he can just cruise and still get selected for canty.
We sent or letter yesterday !

Knightwarrior

I think you will find as of the 2009 playing season NZRL have ruled that no player under the age of 18 can play Senior Football. This includes Prem/Reserves/Div1/Div2

and parent consent doesnt change the ruling

With the product that rugby has at the moment... I personally believe a 20's grade could become a very attractive option for guys after first 15 rugby... and should give all clubs a great boost with recruiting into that age especially with NRL clubs active in the region

If I were to build a 20's team
I would have maybe the 3-4 best 18yrs players, plus half the squad 19yrs and half 20's. that would give you a better succession plan year on yr. of course those numbers would fluxuate a little but gives a basic idea.

We are having a bit of a bumper crop on 18's this year maybe two teams over 30 have turned up.

Stallions 20's "soultrain liked that name" would be fantastic next year.

We are trying to put together another trip to Raro this year for our prems. We would play Raro local grand finalists and a Cook Island residents team.

If we can raise the money we could take 18's as well

I don't think we can wait for NZRL or CRL its time for the clubs to initiate things ourselves to advance the game

Knightwarrior I think 18's could be a great comp this year.

That boy of yours sounds pretty good, does he want to play with Lions next year?

This could cause a stir!!!

I dont know.

To be honest any 18 year old that has aspirations to play at a decent level will be good enough to crack Premiers right away.

Thats being realistic about the level of premiers at the moment. It is no where near as good as it was 10-15 years ago. There are some standouts, but overall its not.

So this being the case, who are you going to get playing under 20s? Guys that cant cut it at prems and 17 year olds and a few decent 18 year olds. I honestly dont see 20s as the answer in canterbury.

You have to remember that we are not the NRL. The numbers, plus skill and size levels mean the under 20s comp there is a great comp. Its probably on a par with what Bartercard was here, but faster.

I just cant see a Canterbury under 20s comp being any higher skill wise, intensity wise than the 18s comps are. You might have a few bigger guys that are close to 20 but like i said, if they have any real game they will be playing Premiers at that age!

The only advice I could give up and coming young guys is to link with an NRL affiliated club like Halswell, Linwood etc and to go hard when playing rep footy at end of the year. If you can foot it with the Auckland 18s and have the eye of the right people you will get a crack with an NRL club.

As an example Halswell recently sent over 4-5 to Sharks for an 18s trial, they have 2 in the Sharks under 20 squad, 1 in the raiders under 20s and another returned from the Eels under 20s.

The pathways are there now, just got to be patient and upskill your game to be able to compete in the rep footy.

I have to agree with Knightwarrior, it must get boring playing same guys week in, week out. Just tell the boy to keep working and the pathways are there if he is good enough and works hard enough.

Definately rugbys product is way inferior to leagues at the moment. Recruitment into high schools could be a winner, but its breaking down those barriers isnt it???

Totally agree with you there Coyote. I personally know that CRFL (Te Wairau) is doing a great job with the schools League and we have big plans for the competitions this year (Possibly sending a couple of teams up to nationals). Aranui High School has had a couple of NRL clubs express interest in developing and re-building links with the Rugby League Academy this year. I truly believe that if we can continue strengthening these school competitions then we will see a massive boost in numbers and the quality of our local club competitions.

I think under 20's nrl is quite a big step up from batercard.

We have a guy who played for warriors u 20's 08 was out with shoulder reconstruction last year, this is a full professional comp

Under 20's has one of the largest TV viewer followings of any sport in Australia.

We have established relationship with Melbourne Storm and it was interesting to discover they have a player recruitment budget of $50,000 for NSW premier comp and a $250,000 recruitment budget for under 20's comp. Mark Walsh and Johnny Lima both have contracts with Storm and Manly.
We are waiting for Storm to announce a couple of scholarships at moment.

League is going strong at moment and i don't think there is any lack of players, just a lack of decent competitions and man power for recruitment.

CRL did some good work fund raising and have $20,000 sponsorship for prem comp so winning team this year get $2,500.00

yes you are right lionman, just found out theres no way 17s can play senior footy, my boys gutted, I cant see the problem he wants to play, we want him to play,premier coach wants him to play but NZRL & CRL say no way.
Luckly he is going to the league course at Aranui Academy this year, so he's going to stick with league.
Sorry Murray but he's allready tried Cele's 2 seasons ago when our club had no team for him and you cheeky buggers charged us $300 to transfer him back last year, but thats a post for another day.

Yes I remember he's a great young player, we were just recouping costs charged to us by Halswell.
New club should have paid for him.

We had to pay for him to transfer to us, no extra charges $300 in $300 out.

All the best I think he will have a great year Andrew had some of our guys last year did a great job with them, they all stepped up big time.

Just a note to those interested, not all the 18 year old will make it to prems next year from your clubs, why not
Under 20's STALLIONS: provides another two years of age group league development.

Not all players are ready for prems at 18 we need something for the guys who develop a little later, and something in line with NRL

I have watched the old guys with struggling ego's bash the young players coming through into reserve grade comp, as if its some sort of initiation into manhood, its no initiation just thuggery in my opinion

Pathways seem to be there, well done Johnny

Canterbury fullback Johnny Aranga was named the Bartercard Domestic Player of the Year. He excelled for the Bulls in their title-winning campaign in last year’s Bartercard Premiership and was rewarded with a spot in the Bartercard Premiership Selection which beat Toa Samoa Domestic.

With all the critisism of the CRFL our players, officials, coaches, support staff and provincial teams do seem to continuously punch above their weight.

Yes great effort by Bulls

Had a call from Peter Smith today he told me about his dad Pat Smith.

I'm so glad he called, I wish I had the opportunity to meet Pat, sounds like he was a great man on and off the field

The cup makes a lot more sense to me now and what a storey to inspire young players with.

It would be awesome to have some more of Pats storey on this site.

Hey Peter thanks again for the call look forward to meeting face to face, really enjoyed what you had to say re: league in Canterbury